these two assistant ministers are a very good example to their people.

And what is that supposed to mean Vijay?

Owe unto poor Kenyans who would do anything just because their leaders have told them to do so? In my own opinion this should be approached in a very wise way since most of these people are going to mistake this as a cure for aids and instead of preventing the spread, there will even be more cases, the leaders have to do more than this.

Duncan,

This prank by Raila, Oburu, Nyongo, Olweny and Co is foolish.

Does Oburu, for instance, fall amongst the targeted risk group? Is he intending to have unprotected sex with a multiplicity of shady partners now that he has the so-called 60% advantage?

Circumcision has over the years been blamed for being the cause of a long list of medical conditions, all of which have since been disproved. In the 19th century, when masturbation was thought to lead to mental illness, circumcision was prescribed to prevent madness. During the 1st world war it was claimed to prevent venereal diseases. In the mid-nineties, it was offered as a prevention against cancer. The list of ”circumstitions” is quite a long one spanning many years and the benefits claimed relate to the dreaded disease of the moment.

So here we are now with HIV/AIDS and, hey presto, circumcision comes to our rescue once again?

Raila and Co are supposed to be discerning fellows and I can only conclude that their eagerness to support this ’cut’ campaign has more to do with issues of politics and donor funding rather than public health concerns supported by sound medical evidence. By choosing HIV/AIDS to be the latest disease to benefit from circumcision, they are embarking on a venture of dubious value that will catch up with them when the poor folks wizen up, as they surely will...that is when Agwambo will be cut to size.

This campaign is not supposed to be about being brave like Oburu is pretending to be. It is about the supposed medical benefits of circumcision. Have the experts shown such evidence? Absolutely not.

If you are familiar with the ’research’ being touted by Prof Agot and Prof Achola you would see just how shaky it is and how widely it has been challenged by their peers. They do not even seem the least bothered to defend their findings. The more generous critics have termed the findings as ”speculative”, ”unreliable”, ”tenuous”. Others ”reckless” and ”irresponsible”.

Which is a round about way of saying rubbish.

Harun i think these two leaders are not after selfish ends.

but isn’t this move by the two ministers a step towards the more you are suggesting Rose?

Madhusudan,you are right and am sure Duncan will agree with us here,AIDS is a purnishment from God.

nope,but am on my way brother

Whatever they are after is clearly without medical basis. And the Luo people should not have to tolerate this sort of ignorance by their leaders, especially educated ones like Raila and his brother. That they have chosen to propagate these lies only confirms that they are really just selfish politicians. Probably hoping to go down in history as the brothers who liberated their people from their foreskins!

i agree with you my friends

Yes you are right Johnstone,this is a bold step and a good one in a big battle

Harun but we have to appreciate the fact that circumcision is not evil either and that for a man like Oburu Odinga for instance to accept the cut,don’t you think there is more than bravery here?To me i see it as a very bold step because here is a man with an option of going on with his life as he is with the fore skin but decides to circumcise so as to give his country men confidence in the decision.

We should see beyond the medical aspect of it,let us try to appreciate the physical aspect too.

iam just on my way Vijay

But Duncan, what is the physical aspect? What is the confidence about? You say circumcision is not evil. What about the converse? Is the foreskin evil?

In the absence of evidence to support these claims, one can only conclude that the campaign is not only a political gimmick but dangerous too. Also, to prey on the gullibility of the good Luo folk is utterly despicable. It matters not that it is Raila and his brother at the forefront.

The confidence am talking about is the peoples confidence in going for the cut,you know when their leader goes for it he gives them courage,”Is the foreskin evil?” no it isn’t
You say there is no evidence to support this claims,but tell me,do you have evidence to support this statement?”one can only conclude that the campaign is not only a political gimmick but dangerous too”

Harun let us not always be pessimistic,sometimes people mean good

I am not always pessimistic. In fact, on this particular issue, I’m very optimistic that the Luo people will soon have accurate information and from then on make informed decisions about whether to cut or not.

I have also learnt not to accept ’facts’ without testing their veracity, when I can. Certainly not when such ’facts’ come from politicians. Much of the crap they blabber about is borne of crooked intentions or sheer ignorance. Neither of which should be accepted by well meaning folks like you and I. Certainly not in this era of IT advancement.

There is an abundance of information regarding the matter of circumcision and HIV/AIDS and you haven’t said whether you have had a look at any of it. Sadly, but not strangely, the local media is not bothered to publish the so called expert evidence that was presented at Kisumu. Are we just to accept their word (and Raila’s) that ”it has been proved”?

And you still haven’t made it clear why the Luo need courage. Or what the ”good intentions” are.

that still doesn’t justify your allegations that the move by the Odingas is selfish.

With all due respect brother Duncan, it seems to me that even if I delivered here a truckload of evidence to refute Raila’s stand, you simply will not read it, let alone accept it.

So I will let be. Cheers.

i thought you were interested in debate

I was but how can the debate proceed when I raise issues and you respond with cheer-leading for the Odingas?

Issue: Does circumcision have medical benefits, if so which ones?

Issue: Does circumcision prevent infection with HIV, if so how?

Issue: What is the ’evidence’ that is being given to the Luo people to enjoin them in mass circumcision?

Issue: Are you (and other media players promoting this campaign) familiar with studies that refute these ’expert’ claims? If so, are you informing the target public of these so that they could make informed decisions?

These are the issues I though we should be debating, rather than gauge each others support (or lack of it) for Odinga.

i am sorry if you feel offended by my stand,but let us get things straight,

Issue: Does circumcision have medical benefits, if so which ones? ..... Answer,the fore skin carries germs,if a person is to have an unprotected sexual act,there are higher chances for the person to get infected with HIV if he isn’t cut because this skin will help trap the virus in the body,unlike a person who is cut.

Issue: Does circumcision prevent infection with HIV, if so how?...Answer,it doesn’t prevent,it just reduces the chances of getting it as explained above.

Issue: What is the ’evidence’ that is being given to the Luo people to enjoin them in mass circumcision?.....it has been researched that uncircumcised fellows are on a more risk of getting an infection as compared to a person who is cut.

Issue: Are you (and other media players promoting this campaign) familiar with studies that refute these ’expert’ claims? If so, are you informing the target public of these so that they could make informed decisions?........this is it,we want the masses to go with the order of the day.



Now to come to you,
why do you think i am on a wrong chase?i mean what makes you think that the Odingas are after a selfish end?

I would love to know.

what i mean to say is that,circumcision reduces the chances of infection and this two ministers come from a community that has not been circumcising and the government is encouraging people to get away from their cultures which are not healthy that is why these two want to be on the front line to market the cut in heir home yard.

i think what is meant here is that the absence of the foreskin reduces the chances of trapping the fluids that have the virus by the fore skin.

Nobody said that the act will prevent,it just implies that the act reduces the chances of one getting infected,i solely wrote that article to highlight the effort of these elderly people to go for the cut with an intention of trying to change the backdated culture of not circumcising their men.

Duncan, you are writing some very outrageous stuff. Why don’t you want to search these things out first? Even the experts you’re trying to defend here will weep if they come across these crazy ideas of yours.

Please, please, please... Google ”circumcision and HIV/AIDS”

Also include Prof. Bailey, Prof. Achola and Prof. Agot in a refined search of the same to read the report being boasted about in Kisumu.

Read for yourself, my brother, and stop this business of the Odingas for a little while. There is plenty of information out there.

Who is fooling who in the house?

Harun,don’t you know that the searches that we google come from sources that are not proven or announced truth?

For instance don’t you think if Duncan DID WHAT YOU JUST PROPOSED HE WOULD END UP FINDIND HIS ARTICLES AS ONE OF THE RESULTS?

STOP THE NEGATIVITY HARUN, i think Duncan is right here,.
And about the Odingas,who doesn’t know that Raila Odinga is a great man?

Edward,between you and your subject,whom do you think would be an illiterate which doctor?

you are forgiven Marijn

i support you Duncan,to some point,it reduces the chances of one getting the infection though this is to a very small margin,the chances of the cut reducing HIV&AIDS are very slim.

Johnstone, you’re trying to derail the discussion with non-issues like trying to teach me how to use search engines. You can exalt Raila all you want but also try to address the issues while at it. Also, screaming with upper-case letters is unnecessary. Just present your point of view.

You also need to learn how to follow your own advice to others,stick to the issues,am sure evrybody who is in here knows clearly that you were the first one to go off road by deciding to attack the personality in the Odingas rather than discuss the issue at hand,and by the way i don’t take your words well when you say i ”scream with uppercase letters” don’t you think that by you saying that you are to far away of the point?

Johnstone,

”screaming with upper-case letters” is a matter of online etiquette which you ought to be familiar with. You really have no reason to take my reminder about it badly.

As for ”who doesn’t know that Raila Odinga is a great man”, I can confirm to you that I don’t. If that makes me a lesser mortal, so be it.

But Raila’s greatness was really not my point. Mine was that, even if he were, on this matter of circumcision for HIV protection/prevention he is backing a campaign on the basis of myth and misrepresentation.

What is yours?

mine is as before,you claims that it is a myth following are wrong placed,and yes,you asked about me?i back the campaign on the basis of the same so callled ”myth” as you put it.

Is that a joke?...hahaha... Happy?

what is happening,is anyone fighting someone here?

Johnstone,Edward has no answer,he must be worrying you might bewitch him.

Actually i had not thought about it that way Duncan,maybe you are right who knows!

yes nobody knows

oscar i like the way you put across your ideas,i think Duncan agrees with me on this.

Actually to i think that circumcision necessarily doesn’t prevent HIV,i think Duncan has been clearly saying that the cut only reduces the chances a little but if someone says that it prevents then that would be on the upper hand because it wont be 100% true.

You can’t compare circumcision to condom use.

i love your openness Oscar,i think Johnstone has answered your question.

They are following suit in In Uganda,and somebody was saying that we have witchdoctors around!

and that somebody disappeared from here like a witchdoctor

i don’t know where he went to,but i assure you if i meet him in any place i will urge him to come back here

this is good,at least these men can also be clean for us.

Abigael,

I’m curious to know who is ”us” and whether, on this particular issue, you are well placed to speak on their behalf.

More importantly, are you suggesting or do you know that uncircumcised men are unclean? It is this sort of generalization that propagates idiotic stereotypes, alienates whole communities and leads to unnecessary conflict.

you are simply calling me an idiot,i would prefer you constructed your sentences mannerly and stick to the point

I called the stereotypes idiotic. Not you.

My point, a simple question that you haven’t answered is whether uncircumcised men are unclean.

If you find that you cannot sustain that line of thought, you could simply let it slip by.

”More importantly, are you suggesting or do you know that uncircumcised men are unclean? It is this sort of generalization that propagates idiotic stereotypes”

’This sort of generalization’my sort that is or let me say the subject who hs this mind that generalizes things is my mind so i might as well be subject to the verdict of idiotic stereotypes.

Your ego wont make you see that you used abusive words here,even if you inverted them.

It is always good to lead from the front.